Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. This is Overland Weekly, episode number twenty-three. If you're new here, my name is Davey, I'm your host. And the gentleman joining me today, he really doesn't need an introduction if you have followed the off-road media and publication space the last twenty-five years or so, but I'm going to give you one anyway. So, Christian Hazel has been a journalist and editor at Peterson's, at JP, at Four Wheeler. done TV shows, Four by Four Garage, Ultimate Adventure, and now, of course, the latest evolution of UA with Unreal Adventure. He's got his hoodie on there today. Christian, welcome to the show. Thank you for joining me today. Thanks for having me, Davey. Nice intro, by the way. I was getting into the music there. All right. You know, that's a great segue you gave me, because speaking of music, we're going to talk a lot about about trucks today. But first, I want to pull this picture up and I want you to tell me about about this guy. Oh, God. That's that's me in another life. Yeah, that's that's probably nineteen ninety two on a stage somewhere in Boston. uh yeah yeah I was I was a musician um a group of of friends from high school we started a band and you know it said that that same old spinal tap story rose to a threshold of fame and then it all kind of fizzled um so so was was the plan to be the next uh You know, the next Tom Scholz, the next Joe Perry out of Boston? Yeah, actually, yeah. I was firmly convinced that was just a, you know, a certainty. It's not if, but when. Is music, so for those that don't know, you're from the Boston area originally. Is music what drove you to Southern California? Yeah, it actually is. So I was in, as I said, you know, high school band school. that band kind of fizzled. And so it was, you know, the core of the band, the drummer, guitarist, other guitarist, bass player. So we got a new singer when our first singer kind of left. Of course, you had to go through at least a couple of singers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And our new singer, he had just, he was, it was a gift. His voice was a gift. I mean, he sounded a lot like Sammy Hagar, which, you know, for the time that was, you know, playing rock music, uh, we had it, we had it. Uh, the only thing we didn't have was stability. And so I just remember, you know, one, we had fought tooth and nail to get this one gig and we had, you know, people from record company there. And, um, and the singer got in a fight with his girlfriend and didn't show up. And so that was, and so that was, that was the end of that band. But, you know, we, we had a, a good large following. And so it was kind of sad to, Watch that kind of fizzle. So the drummer from my band, he was an amazing talent. He's just crazy good drummer. He got scooped right up by a band and then shortly after joining them, he moved to California. okay so uh you know I was in college um doing doing doing the college thing and then still in music you know doing some studio work and and playing here and there with some bands uh you know just kind of filling in uh and then their guitarist out in california wasn't working out and so they flew me out kind of auditioned me and and um yeah that was it uh then I I moved to california that was the You moved to California, so you flew out there for the audition, but I'm assuming that you then you went back home and packed up and drove your stuff out. Tell me about that trip. What were you driving on that trip? Oh, my Ram Charger. Yeah. So that was so, so rewinding just slightly back, back, I think it was, um, I was, uh, I was supposed to move into, I was, I was at a Northeastern university in Boston going for a civil engineering degree. And so, you know, as a freshman in the civil engineering program, you've got labs. My first lab was like eight a.m. My last lab was like, you know, finished at like six thirty p.m. or seven p.m. So you were in Boston all day long. And so I was supposed to get a apartment with a couple other buddies and then they bailed like two weeks before classes were supposed to start. And so then, oh, oh, crap, I'm commuting now. So I bought a, um, I had a, I had a really hot sixty nine cut list with a, you know, four fifty five and I wasn't driving that into Boston. So I got a VW bug just into the city. And that thing was just such a pile. It broke down on me constantly. Um, so I'm sitting watching TV one day, probably in October, November of ninety one, and one of the local uh auto dealerships you know had this maroon cane sorry canyon red uh you know eighty five ram charger in the uh I remember they had it on like a rotisserie so the whole thing oh yeah those were hot yeah yeah yeah hey come on down so I did I came on down and it was uh four thousand dollars Point my money down. I remember taking it for the test drive. Not not really understanding what a granny transmission was like. This thing doesn't want to start in first. But, yeah, I bought that thing. And so when when it was time to move to California, that was my my vehicle. I've got a I got a picture here. See if you remember when when this was. Oh, man. Yeah, that was that was the year I moved out to California. So that's ninety four. okay so that would be the truck as I drove it out um those wheels I bought her to swap me down down in the cape uh when I bought the truck it had steelies with um those smooth stainless hub caps on it that fell off all the time so I bought those turbines at a swap meet for like I don't know a hundred bucks and put uh those are thirty two by eleven fifty sears trail handler at tires those are fantastic tires I wish they still made them uh you know but I'm Yes, we could talk about the tires that they should still make. We had that conversation the other day. Ram chargers hold a special place in my heart. I also, my first vehicle was a Ram charger. It was my dad's and he gave it to me in the late nineties. I've got a picture of here this was mine uh an eighty six three sixty seven twenty seven automatic uh truck and I think these are thirty two eleven fifty uh uh uniral laredos nice that looks like the prospector yeah you got the options mine was the bear mine was the se mine was the poor man's truck so I had the manual transmission no ac you know I remember I drove that truck everywhere it went down to uh florida in the summer a couple times you know why I don't know you're young and immune to the heat I guess but florida in the summer with no air conditioning is not advisable but yeah maine to florida and then um you know just wherever I happen to go I love to travel at the time But I remember when I moved out here, the singer of the band had a single axle trailer, enclosed trailer. So I threw all my amps and all my stuff in there. And the guys in the band had some stuff that they needed brought out too. And so we caravaned. It was the Singer's Toyota truck that was in that photo that you just showed. And then my Ram Charger hauling the trailer and just coming across country. That was, you know, that truck got thirteen miles a gallon on the highway with a tailwind. But of course, back then, gas was a buck a gallon. So who cared? But I had not done anything with the steering wheel. column yet, you know, Borgeson made a fortune selling steering columns for those trucks because the rag joint work. So going across country with the steering wheel, none of the other guys could drive that truck between the steering, you know, not really going where you pointed it. And then, you know, a couple of the guys can drive manual. So it was it was it was a challenge getting across country. And then, of course, once we got west of the Rockies, you know, it was one hundred and twenty five degrees going through the deserts with no AC. I remember having the windows up because it was it was just cooler than having them down. Just baking in that in that thing, man. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well, I think the Ram Chargers are underappreciated. The Broncos and the Blazers get all the love, but the Ram Charger will always be my favorite from that era. Yeah, they're special trucks. I remember back in the day when my neighbor had one when I was a little kid, and I just kind of always was gravitated, was drawn to it. Yep. Here it is. I think you'd maybe change the axles at this point. Yeah. So after I bought that truck, I started buying off-road magazines and I think the first magazine I ever bought was, um, it may have been four wheel drive and SUV. It was just something I picked up off the newsstand. Cause prior to that, I was a hot rod and muscle car guy. And so, you know, I read car craft and hot rod and all that stuff. When I bought that truck started dabbling in the, in the, you know, in the black arts of off-road journalism. And so, uh, You know, it's like one thing led to another. And then for no good reason, I decided I needed four-ten gears and a Dana-sixty. And so that axle I pulled out of a, you know, self-service yard in San Diego was a Dana-sixty HD out of a two-wheel drive truck. And it had four-tens and a track lock, which is why I picked it. But the track lock was completely ineffective. And then that front axle I found on the recycler paper, you know, this is all prior to internet. And I bought it for like three hundred bucks from some guy had pulled it from a pickup. Well, after I installed it, I came to figure out that. He had totaled the truck by running it into something. And so the passenger tube was bent. And so that was, or sorry, the driver tube was bent. So I, you know, paid good money and installed a bent front axle in that place. You know, it's funny, these younger guys that they complain about people not putting good pictures on Facebook Marketplace. But what they don't know is, twenty-five years ago, we were buying from classifieds based just off text. There were no pictures. You had to go get in touch with the guy and go see it before you even knew what you were looking at. Yeah, you had to call him on the phone and have a conversation with the real human being. There's no texting. There's no this. There's no that. And it somehow worked out for us. Yeah. All right, so you make your way out to California. The music doesn't quite pan out. So how do you wander into the Peterson's office? Well, you know, I did music out here for a couple of years, you know, doing the L.A. scene, Roxy Whiskey, all that stuff and playing clubs down here in San Diego, chillers and, you know, opening for this band and that band that came through. And then, you know, you start clawing back on top. You know, we had once again, this is all prior to Internet. So to get, you know, any kind of success in the music industry outside of independent labels, which at the time were kind of alt rock labels. We were a little more mainstream. You had to get record company interest. And so once again, we had a big show. We had a guy there to check us out. And that was another instance where things just kind of fell apart at the right at the. right at the tipping point uh the bass player just walked off stage and like he had had enough and so right then I was just like I'm done with this music thing mostly with musicians I was done with dealing with musicians because I get it a couple things in my life I don't like is drama and ego and in in that scene you've got a lot of both Um, but, uh, yeah, so I just, I just said, you know, forget this, went back to school and, um, you know, I, I wound up getting a degree in English just cause it was easy for me and, uh, was working at, um, Harcourt brace doing scientific. I was a production assistant for scientific journals, total springboard entry-level job. Uh, and if you ever saw the movie office space, that was my life. Like I'd come in, I'd waste as much time as possible. Um, My actual workload took me not even an hour to complete for the day. And so I just spend my time, you know, searching internet forums or playing solitaire or whatever, trying not to get busted for wasting time. But really, there's nothing else for me to do. When you're supposed to be doing your TPS reports? Yes. Wasn't that it? Precisely it, yeah. And so one of the sites I frequented was this ramchargercentral.com. And I was, you know, a forum member on there. And there was another guy from San Diego that I had met in person at some of the runs or just, you know, swapping parts or whatever. And he was an older guy. And he had written to Four Wheel and Off Road to kind of complain that there wasn't any Dodge Ram Charger or Dodge coverage to the same degree there was, you know, Chevy and Ford and Jeep. And so the editor at the time was Cole Quinnell. kind of shot back an email. Well, hey, if you're such a, you know, expert on these trucks, why don't you send me an application? Because I've got a position that just opened up. And to his credit, I owe him my career. You know, his name was Ross. I don't know if he's still around, but Ross, thanks, buddy. He shot the email to me. And I quickly, you know, jumped on it, emailed Cole, hey, I'll send you a resume. And so I did. I sent him my resume. Cole got right back to me like within fifteen minutes. That was kind of his style. And said, oh, hey, you know, are you somewhere you can talk? And so I found an open office, went in and we had like an hour long phone call. I'm sure my boss was wondering where the hell I had gone off to. But I was in this darkened office in this, you know, skyscraper in downtown San Diego talking with the editor of Peterson's Four Wheel and Off Road. And I was just over the moon just to, you know, get that kind of contact with him. And then Cole said, well, hey, man, this was really productive. Why don't you... Write me a fake feature on your RAM charger and then send me a list of story ideas. And when I get it, take your time. And when I get it, we'll talk further. And so I went right back to my desk and I wrote the story in like, you know, thirty five minutes and I sent him a list. Boom. There you go. And he's like, why don't you give me another call? And so I called him back and like next week I was in there interviewing. He hired me and that was it. You know, I just kind of I just kind of stepped into my dream job. It was that was that ninety nine. Yeah, that was that was like, yeah, ninety nine. So summer ninety nine. And then I think my first day was like September first. Okay. All right. And because that was the, if I'm correct, that was the first year of UA. That was, yeah. Is that right? So he'd done Power Tour and wanted to do something similar? Yeah, that's it. He and David Freiberger and the staff at Hot Rod had come up with the idea of Power Tour. And so then, you know, Cole went from Hot Rod and he launched a four by four power magazine. He's the editor of that. When that reached a level of success, Cole was promoted to editor for off road. And at that magazine, he decided, you know, it would be really cool to do kind of a power tour style off road event. where we actually drive these vehicles and go stitch a couple of trails together. And it wasn't a sponsored official event or anything. It was just a magazine story. But it was something he'd wanted to do. And given the success and longevity of Power Tour, even at that time, he knew that it had potential in the future as a sponsored event. But that first one, I just remember my interview. He's like, OK. We have a lot of travel. You do a lot of travel. We have something coming up in two weeks after your first day. Are you going to be available? I'm like, hell yeah. So that was it. I was at FNG. I started. And then two weeks later, I was on the first Ultimate Adventure. How cool is that? It was pretty cool. Did you take the Ram charger on that or were you riding along? No, I was, I was FNG. So, uh, Cole was leading the trip in his seventy-six GMC K-ten. We call it sewer lobster brown. It was, it was just this horrible orangey brown color. It was on thirty-six inch, uh, Swamper TSL radials. And, um, he had built a three fifty coal as an engine guy. And so he had built up a three fifty. I think it started as a crate engine, but he had done some stuff to it and a manual. He had the four sixty five manual four speed and then a clone, which was brand new at the time. So a clone underdrive unit in front of the MP two oh five. And then on the back of the MP two oh five, he had a gear vendors overdrive. And so this thing was just just boxes and underdrives and overdrive, you know, just And the whole thing rattled and shook. And so I ran, I rode shotgun with Cole. Uh, I was kind of photographer, you know, whatever they needed. Uh, that was, that was my job. I was the low guy in the totem pole. And then John Kappa, who was a technical editor for four wheel and off road, John drove his flatty, his flat fender. And so he had a CJ two way that he had built in his, you know, garage and that had a, a three fifty engine, uh, with a new at the time, Holly two barrel projection, uh, the old analog one where you actually turned the rheostats on the control box to mix the mixture and all that other stuff. So yeah, and then we had just a bunch of other people who had been invited just through an open invitation sent out by Cole in one of the editorials and then also to industry friends like Steve Sasaki from Powertank. I have Powertank right over my shoulder. um I'm kind of thinking about that but yeah we had we had some people in the industry who came along too but it was just a motley crew and just we we had we had a bunch of trails starting in arizona went up into new mexico and then colorado is it is it true that that's the trip where your shoes melted onto cole's floorboard close close okay uh uh that was a trip where john kappa's shoes melted oh from the floorboards of his flatty It was about a hundred and twenty, hundred and twenty two degrees. And then when we were we started our first trail was out of Apache Junction. And so we drove from L.A. to to Apache Junction, stayed in some little roach bag motel. And on the way to the hotel that first day on the travel day, that's when John's shoes melted. And I remember John and I were sharing a room and it was not a nice hotel. And it was one of those kind of sinks that looked like a truck stop, you know, sink from the nineteen seventies. And I just remember John throwing his face under there, drinking water like a horse in a trough just because he was so dehydrated and, you know. Cole and I at least had windows we could kind of put up to keep the slipstream from burning us up because it was just a blow dryer on your face. Oh, sure. So so that was the first year that that was ninety nine. You guys came back. You wrote the article. I'm sure there was talk of, OK, what is this going to look like next year? But then it doesn't happen in in there was no talk of next year. It was just it was just that was cool. That was great. You know, we got a cover out of it, got a good story and then just kind of you banked it, you know. OK. And that was it. And then our publisher at the time was a guy named Jim Ryan. And Jim was always good about, you know, fitting this component with that advertiser and stuff. And so when we decided to do it as an official event the next year, by then Cole had been promoted to editorial director overseeing all the magazines, all the off-road titles, I should say. And then Rick Payway had moved from JP Magazine over to Four Wheel and Off-Road. And so it was Rick and me. At the time, I don't even think we had hired staff yet. So there was a period of time when it was just Rick and myself on that magazine. But I had so much energy as a, you know, I would write the whole book if they'd let me. You know, you had to hold me back at the time. I just loved doing it. But, yeah, we planned it as kind of a formal event and then had a film crew come along and all that stuff, so. And that's the trip where, uh, where things got a little hairy, right? Where we had the, the break failure that ended in the rollover. Yeah. Yeah. That was, uh, we were in, in, uh, Washington state and, um, that was, uh, Tom Boyd was in his, um, Bronco and behind, um, one of our, John Bundren from All Pro Off-Road. And this, this was back prior to, yeah, yeah, yeah, that was a bad one. This was back prior to, you know, a lot of the rules we have in place that kind of came the next year. That's where I wondered if this kind of spawned some of those rules into existence. It spawned a age limit because John had his young daughter in the back seat. And then, you know, there was, so what happened was John, John was in front of Tom, Tom lost his brakes and then, you know, kind of inadvertently pitted Bundren who, you know, that thing barrel rolled down a hill. And I remember John's wife was riding shotgun and she had, you know, a cut, cut leg and there was blood and, And then he was worried about his daughter in the back because when things settled down, she had somehow gotten out of the seat. And so I think she was on the way back of it. Thankfully, she was not severely injured. But yeah, so that realization that, oh, as a corporate-sponsored official event, we have to kind of put some whys and wherefores in place here. This is not just going out with... a bunch of buddies you know and everyone's on their own anymore so the next year we kind of sat and finalized a bit of the rules you know no one under eighteen uh there was never any drinking or anything like that allowed uh so that was never an issue but you know we just officially stated you know no drinking no drugs no this no that right and then the the rules that we came up with for the third ultimate adventure are largely still in place So you do that one in, uh, in Oh one. And then I believe that's about the time that you transition over to the JP magazine side of the house. Is that correct? Oh, two is one. So I, I came over to JP magazine very shortly after the third ultimate adventure. So the third UA, uh, By that time, my Ram charger, I cut the top off. It was fully caged. I had one tons under it. I had that clean, uh, an MP two Oh five from Cole's sewer lobster truck. I bought it from Cole. And so that was now on my Ram charger. behind the factory MP four thirty five. And I had forty two inch TSLs on recentered Humvee beadlocks with run flats in them. And so, yeah, there it is. So that's that's the third way. And so that was in summer of two thousand two. And then I think by about maybe September or thereabouts, I had moved to JP. So what what drove the move to to JP, just a career opportunity or or did you did you want to it was it was really more a lateral move uh I was a full size guy at the time I was not what you would call a jeep guy I owned a flat fender but you know um john cap and I were were very close friends um john's still a great friend you know I I they're they're the way I qualify, are you a friend of mine or not? Like to, you know, the degree to which, uh, is would I, would I drop everything and go help you move? And John came and helped me move like a couple of times. So I never had to reciprocate, but, um, you know, if he called and asked me to move, uh, help him move, I would. So that's, that's the level to which I, I appreciate John. Um, but you know, it was like at the time JP was bi-monthly, um, And I'm looking over and I'm seeing all the fun he's having and kind of the relaxed pace compared to what I'm doing at Four Wheel and Off-Road. And as I said, it was a lateral move. I was a tech editor at Four Wheel and Off-Road. And I guess in some ways you can almost consider it a step down because I was going from the tech editor of the largest off-road magazine in the world to this niche all Jeep publication. But regardless... I went and had a ball. I loved my time at JP. I think I was there for twelve years. So once I got in, I really didn't want to leave. And there's some stories about that, you know, to that point. But when I finally did leave JP, it was with much reluctance. I see. So did your... Let's say you said you had one flat fender when you started there. How many were in the collection when they drug you away from there? Well, flat fenders specifically, I've only owned a couple of them. I've owned this. Actually, it's the one my computer's sitting on right here in front of me. It's a DG-A. I owned a . I owned a . It was all stock. And there may be one other, but it's not coming to memory. The other, you know, I got into other Jeeps. Like I like long wheelbase vehicles. Like the infamous CJ-Six? Yeah, yeah. CJ-Six behind me here. I owned another one of these. I bought it in two thousand three, I think. And that was the same former Border Patrol seventy one CJ-Six. But that one I left stock height with thirty ones. I've owned I've owned about four or five CJ sixes or M one seventies in my in my kind of Jeep career. I've owned a couple of Wranglers, Jeepster, Commando, you know, a couple of full sizes, pickups and Cherokees, stuff like that. So I just that's kind of the cool thing about JP is you can you can focus in on the brand and and kind of get granular. Whereas if four-wheeling off-road, it's, oh, maybe I'll get a, I'm looking for, I remember looking for a Nissan Patrol for some reason to buy. And then, you know, an old Range Rover or Land Rover or this or that. So you're a little more scattered, which is my personality. I'm like, oh, squirrel, look at that. but you know it was it was fun being with jp and I love the jp audience because they're such loyal brand enthusiasts um it was that's really a special crowd who supports that jeep community well let's talk about that because that's a community that has definitely evolved and and changed and maybe has subsets now uh over the last twenty years so you came into it you had The TJs had been out for a few years at that point, but I'm sure you're still dealing with a lot of CJs, a lot of real Jeeps. And then I think in the early early two thousands Jeep was selling fifty or sixty thousand Wranglers a year and now they're selling a quarter million a year and now they're bright colors and they're on twenty twos and they got ducks on the dashboard. So what did that look like from the inside looking at it? Did you see a kind of a cultural shift in the audience? it's funny because um yes there there was a cultural shift in the audience there was also a um a shift within the jeep organization and in a good way uh you know you go back to the early two thousands when uh the first rubicon came out and there were internal discussions like why would we ever offer this? You know what, you know, you, so you had Dave Yeagy and, and, you know, other, other Jeep engineers going there and telling the, their, their bosses and their bosses, bosses, why this makes sense to offer four, ten gears and a Dana forty-four front axle and a four to one T case. And, you know, and they were all these design, uh, and engineering hurdles that they had to overcome to make that a reality. But, um, The Jeep brand internally at the time was listening and was very cognizant of understanding the performance aspect of the vehicles that related to its sales and the following that they enjoyed. Yeah, they're like, okay, yeah, we'll do this. A couple, you know, thousand units. Never expected it to catch on, really, I think. And then that surprise kind of took them by storm. And so I think, you know... That was the internal thing. So they realized, oh, we can create this off-road performance specific vehicle and have it be successful and not waste our R&D dollars chasing after this. On the same token, when they made that transition from TJ to JK, there was you're going from a small vehicle to a larger vehicle. And so there's that worry that they're going to do like what Ford did to the Thunderbird in the nineteen fifties. You had like the fifty five, six, seven T-Bird. two-seater sporty then they come out with this big honking you know family sedan well you know just behemoths that kind of deflated the balloon and and kind of you know killed killed the moniker and so that didn't happen what what what the jk did was offer a family-friendly solution to people who wanted that freedom, that excitement, that outdoor, you know, sport, you know, kind of ethos that now they could do it and not just have to, you know, fold the kids into the back somehow and not be able to carry any gear and, And, you know, the LJ did that to a to a degree, but still the rear access and and the size of the vehicle. So four door JK, I think, really opened up that market to I don't want to use the word soccer mom community, but it was a family family friendly. more suburban friendly to a vehicle, a family vehicle. So I know, I know so many people that just get out of their Ford Bronco or their, you know, XYZ vehicle and bought a Wrangler and couldn't have been more pleased. There are drawbacks to them. You know, there's some wind noise. They might leak a little here and there, but, But come on, solid axles, a real frame, body on frame, and off-road capability in the mix. And then you can personalize them like almost no other vehicle, especially when they first came out. Yes, yes. That was a big, big thing. So, you know, it was interesting because, like you said, you had people that were buying those JKs that, you know, they probably didn't know what a CJ was. You know, and so there was a whole different education. And likewise, you know, I remember you had a lot of, let's say, kind of the old school iron guys, again, with the CJs that were just adamantly against all of the new, you know, oh, it's got electronic this and electronic that and it's going to fail. And, you know, it's got fuel injection, you know, and it's like, but, you know, here we are. years on and look how everybody's embraced it. So it's interesting how it works. Right. You know, but honestly, from my seat at the time, you know, JP interacting with the jeep enthusiasts the jk never seemed to get the hate that say the yj did you know with the square headlights and the outboard leaf springs and front rear sway bars and all the stuff that the yj kind of introduced to to the jeep brand as you know to to kind of address those those nbc nightline concerns of off-road vehicles rolling over if you breathe on them heavy uh so so I think I think the um The hate had kind of already been extended a little bit on the YJ. And so when the JK came out, at least it had round headlights and had that seven slight grill. And OK, they didn't. Other than other than like the headlights and the grill, a lot of people don't understand the difference between the brands. Like you said, they can't really distinguish a CJ from a TJ from a JK. It's just a Jeep. It's funny for folks that are listening to this that are a little bit younger. You don't understand the hate that was out when the YJs were released. That was a fail on some engineers or designers, whoever wanted to cut away. But they quickly returned to those famous round headlights with the TJs. Yeah. Yeah. TJ, TJ was, uh, was a darling when it, when it came back on the scene in ninety seven. My, uh, uh, my first Jeep was a CJ, a seventy two CJ five, uh, AMC three sixty and a three speed with, uh, those worn out leaf springs. And, uh, man, that was a ride, man. Yeah. Yeah. All right, so you said you were at JP and you could have just stayed there forever. So how did that eventually play out? Yeah, well, they had offered me Four Wheeler. They wanted me to move up to editor Four Wheeler at the time. And, you know, corporate politics at the time, when I got hired, it was Peterson Publishing. You know, Robert Peterson, who started Hot Rod Magazine. And, you know, it was the hallowed halls of Peterson Publishing. And then. And then, you know, went to EMAP and then Prime Media. So we just started getting bought out by all these companies. And then the depth of the corporate, I don't want to say swamp, but, you know, there's more corporate to deal with. Tell us how you really feel, Christian. Yeah, yeah. Well, hey, you know, I survived there for a quarter of a century, so it couldn't have been that bad. But it's just, you know, the reality of working in a big corporation. But they came in and, you know, they had offered me four wheeler early on. I forget exactly when, around oh four or so, oh five. And, you know, told me, I guess the VP made the mistake of telling me what the salary was for that brand. And then I'm like, great, I'm in, let's go. And then when it came time to actually make the move, there's, oh, well, We've got this policy that we can't increase your pay by more than, you know, ten or fifteen percent or whatever it was. So we're going to give you this to run the book. And I'm like, but the job pays this. And so they, yeah, we'll take it or leave it. And so I'm like, OK. And I left it. It was kind of like, wait, what? You're really not going to? No, no, I'm good. I'm good here. So. So, yeah. And then they offered me the magazine a couple more times. In the interim, I had launched Four by Four Garage and done some other, you know, kind of SIP brands, special insertions that only sold on the newsstand, no subscription. I'd done like, you know, some video stuff, four-wheeler TV and whatnot, and kind of increased my clout, my value, my worth. uh and some other projects and things like that that you know I'll never say no it's it's a job and if you you know I'm your employee and if you need me to do something yeah I'm going to give it a hundred and ten percent unless there's a real reason why I can't do it um something that really holds me back and I'm the kind of guy that's going to find a way to do it anyway so you know I had been become valuable And so in one of the corporate reshufflings, they had said, OK, you know, they fired John Kappa, who is the head of four wheeler at the time. And they came to me and said, OK, we know you've turned this job down before. You're not turning it down now. And so it's like, OK, you read between the lines. And so then I became the editor for Wheeler, which was cool. You know, I was ready for a change. I was I was missing not being able to play with. whatever kind of truck I wanted but at the same time I admitted then and I'll still admit now I was not the the quintessential four-wheeler um person you know four-wheeler was always kind of like newer model trucks a little shinier a little flashier you know it's like I always joke that in the peterson building after we purchased four-wheeler and some other brands from general media we were on one side of the building and they were on the side of the building that overlooked the Hollywood sign and all the, all the flashing glitz, you know, that was, that was their kind of side of the street. And, uh, so me coming in there, it was kind of around, you know, peg in a square hole. And, um, you know, I just, I think my first editorial, I, I kind of laid the hammer down, like, okay, no more Chrome shocks, no more this, no more that. And, um, But it was good. I enjoyed a lot of the aspects of working at Four Wheeler. Running Top Truck Challenge was cool. The event that they had there, running pickup truck and SUV of the year was a nice change of pace interfacing with the OEs to a greater degree. And there were parts of the job I really enjoyed. I really enjoy it as a consumer. I miss Top Truck Challenge. I've talked about this before, but I remember going in with my buddy and splitting the VHS, or it may have been DVD. I think it was a VHS tape that you mail-ordered and gathered around to watch that when it went into video form. I would love to see some type of modern-day Top Truck Challenge return. Could be, yeah. I'm actually the reason we paused Top Trick Challenge. You know, as the editor, you're running a small business. Like each of these magazines at the time, they kind of homogenized towards the end to a degree. But especially back in the early days, each brand was its own little isolated business. You're running a business. You had a budget. You generate your own P&L. Yeah, exactly. And you were accountable for it. And so I'm looking at the data. I'm very data driven. And I'm looking at Top Trek Challenge and what it costs us to put it on and what it brings in. But more importantly, what the editorial value was of it. It had followers who loved it. There was a community who supported and loved that event. But running that business, it was a net zero. And then so I'm like, okay, well, it's a net zero financially. I'll keep it going. But what is the editorial side of it? And then when I looked at the issues that covered Top Trek Challenge and then the online data, we actually saw a dip on those Top Trek Challenge issues. and the top track challenge digital coverage. And so I'm like, okay, we need, we need to, you know, put a pause in this. And then, so I did, I paused it. And then the next year without TTC, we didn't see those dips. So that company still owns the name Top Trek Challenge and they can still do something like that. There are other events that do that same thing. I think the Mountain Havoc, I don't have that name exactly correct, but there's, and it's a lot of the Top Trek Challenge people who just wanted to continue it on. So there's still elements of it still alive out there. And at some point in time, Prior to my leaving Motor Trend, we had discussed, is this the time to bring it back? It never really happened, but I think the audience is getting closer to being close to wanting to see something like that again. Distance makes the heart grow fonder. Right, right, sure. All right, so you did your time on four-wheeler over there with all your triple chrome shocks and twelve inch leaf springs and all that good stuff. And then you find your way back to Peterson's, this time as the boss man, I believe. What year was that? That was twenty sixteen. So we had another change in leadership, another shake up. And then my buddy, Sean Holman was going to become the editorial director. And so he, I remember we're sitting at SEMA having lunch and he asked me, you know, Hey, if I, if I get this position and you know, what, what, ideally, what would you like to see happen? And I said, you know, without missing a beat, Oh, I moved to four wheeling off road. I think Ken Brubaker would be great as editor of four wheeler and, you know, yada, yada, yada. And so as soon as Sean took the helm, we, we made that switch because at the time, um, Rick had, um, left his editor. He was, he was doing something a little higher up to the corporate food chain and Fred Williams was running. four-wheeling off-road, and devoting almost all of his time to Dirt Every Day. And so that was really a heavy lift for Fred. And so by sliding me and his editor four-wheeling off-road, that allowed Fred to focus completely on Dirt Every Day. I think there was an overlap of three or four months where Fred was technically my employee, but I wasn't going to tell him what to do yet. Hey, what are you doing? Oh, you're you're driving a jeep underwater. Cool. You want to write a story about it? Yeah. Okay, great If you can get that to me, we'll run it, you know type thing Gotcha. So yeah, so, um, I I came into the magazine in the spring of And that was um, you know a couple weeks before ua I think it was after moab. So in april may I think it was in may sometime in may and so I remember asking fred I'm like okay uh yeah where are we on ua and he's like oh nothing's done crap you're kidding me okay so uh so yeah that was you know I think I had six or seven something weeks to throw ua together for so that's why we didn't build a specific vehicle for that year and and I kept the the route we started in california which was You know, so I could go pre running in and do some checks and things like that of the route and some familiar territory that that, you know, I didn't have to completely reinvent the wheel to to build some kind of fun event for people. How had it or had it changed since you were involved twelve, thirteen years prior? Oh, it was it was much bigger. I think the it was institutionalized. The U.A. had become an institution. So they had a way of doing things that Rick Payway had largely set in place. And, you know. I did this with Top Trek Challenge, too. My first year in, I'm like, I don't really want to rock the boat too much. You know, this has been successful. It has made it to this point. I don't want to come in without experiencing, you know, and understanding just where the pluses and minuses of this event are. And so prior to UA, though, I did poll a lot of the major players. I engaged with some of the cronies. A lot of the advertisers, you know, what do you like? What don't you like? What would you like to see different? And then, you know, in an ideal world, what would you like to, you know, just to be? And so The biggest thing, like, had been a rough year for UA. Rick famously would keep the group going for long, long days. I guess they would just drive in circles, basically. You would start in the morning here. That's Rick's style. Yeah, but you would start and end, like, only two hundred miles from those points, but you would drive in circles for, like, five hundred, six hundred miles. Without really doing you know so that we they call them death marches they're like we don't like the death marches and we don't like getting into camp at like three a.m and then having to get up at six a.m and so so those elements I I quickly say okay well that's an easy fix you know we'll we'll take the death marches out um we'll increase the scenic aspect of it um I want to get dirt under the tires as much as possible no one wants to just go pound pavement to pound pavement and so um so that's kind of what I did for you know with with limited time and and understanding and things like that I just kind of made it an event like I'd want to do and incorporated some of the old school you know first three ua elements that that I remembered fondly What did your schedule look like? Because you're planning routes, you're coordinating with sponsors, you're herding all the cats with the cronies, I'm sure, and you have to put out a magazine every month at the same time. That sounds like a little much. Yeah, it was UA. I said this my whole time doing it. UA was a full-time job on top of a full-time job. So being an editor of a magazine, just running the magazine, that was, you know, there's no hours. You're just always on. You know, things crop up in the middle of the night and you've got to handle it, especially towards the later stages when we had such a strong digital presence. You know, you would get some kind of post that inadvertently went up or, you know, some kind of, you know, comment or something that, you know, was going to, caused some a-bomb to go off somewhere and so you're always dealing with some kind of malady and so ua was just more of that on top of it um but it was it's the labor of love I I really enjoyed doing it and john kappa and I used to joke and say it's like a carnival uh you know person spinning the plates you know you go by the time you get done the line spinning like twenty plates, like the first one starting to wobble and you get run back over, spin that plate. And and so that that's what, you know, being a magazine editor was like back then, especially during the U.A. months. Christian, talk a little bit about the the trail selection and the routes and going to the different parts of the country, because you you were on several of them. Is there a region that that stands out as as maybe the more memorable or the more brutal of the bunch? Yeah. Well, brutal. I would say, not in terms of terrain, but just in terms of discomfort, that was Arizona in twenty seventeen, just by virtue of the heat. It was so hot the day we left for the hotel that Phoenix International had grounded any plane smaller than a seven thirty seven because It was too hot for them to generate enough lift to take off safely. And so, uh, it was, it was easily, most of the days we were out there. Um, and so just that when you're living out there in that heat, you know, for, for seven days, all of our military vets listening are going to be like, Oh, please, like, you know, so, but, but for, for a soft civilian, like, like, uh, me and some of the other people out there, um, you know it's it's a little much to to do going from your air conditions and the next day you're out there and that so that was that was kind of um that was a good one uh to to lock in the memory banks you know the most miserable experiences always make the best memories so uh that's a fun memory uh and I wouldn't trade that year for the world um but in terms of terrain difficulty of terrain um we don't always hit the worst you know the baddest terrain out there because of the nature of ua you've got twenty five vehicles you're trying to get through a trail system and one day without faking anything, right? We're really out there. We really start, we really finish. We really do the things we show. And plus you've got a film crew with you. You've got photographers, you have, you know, other, other considerations. You have to make it to a fuel stop and this and that. So we don't always hit the worst trail in the area, but we do challenging terrain. And so some of the ones that I really enjoyed, I enjoyed the twenty eighteen year taking everyone to New England. You know, I'm originally from that area, so it was a special year getting to share some of the stuff that I grew up enjoying with, you know, this new family that I have kind of, you know, developed and become, you know, close with. And then the terrain that year too was really fun. You know, you've got some slick rocks, you've got some snot mud, you've got, there's just a little bit of every element thrown in. Whereas, you know, when you're in Southwest, you're dry and ledges and climbs and off-camber things and that. Or Southeast, a lot of the times you just full throttle pin in. I think that year in New England, we got a little bit of everything kind of thrown into the mix. So it was a nice smorgasbord. Yeah, I say this show myself. We definitely have a little bit of East Coast bias. But, I mean, you've wheeled all parts of the country now. What's your take on kind of the challenges and the differences and the culture between East Coast and West Coast wheeling? I don't know if I would say there's any culture that sticks out because at the end of the day, we're all off-roaders and the goal is to help each other, support each other and have fun. But there's definitely differences in the nature inherent to the way you drive. different because, you know, you can be in the east coast, east of the Mississippi. I don't care if it's Oklahoma or or, you know, Maine or North Carolina. You can just pin it and bounce and slide. And, you know, you get your tires going at eighty miles an hour trying to get up something and it makes for a great spectacle. But you try that in Utah or Johnson Valley or somewhere like that, and you're going to get enough traction where something's going to snap and pop. Sure. So you've got to be a little more dynamic with your throttle usage in the West Coast. Northeast, sorry, Northwest, you've got, you know, am I even going to be able to fit? You know, you don't want to take a crew cab long bed into some of those piney forests and stuff. So it's just a little different here and there. And it's been a real blessing being able to kind of experience the whole country on a, you know, close level. You know, I did... I've been here. I've been there. I've wheeled this. I've wheeled that. The only place UA hasn't gone is Rhode Island and Hawaii. And I just can't make the case for Hawaii. Hard as I want to, you know, it's a tough sell. Yeah, I would think especially now without any corporate dollars sponsoring the event, it might be a little harder to get to Hawaii. Yeah, well, the event always had to be self-sufficient. So there was no corporate dollars that supported the event. You didn't get subsidized. Yeah, correct. Yeah. Well, it wasn't supposed to get subsidized. But again, you know, I'll find a way. So back when, you know, there was a prior to twenty nineteen when they killed four on off road, I had. I had a editorial budget that, you know, I would tap heavily into because it was legitimate editorial content that we were creating. But that kind of, that was, you know, kind of subsidizing the UA event. Many of the things that I started doing, like, you know, paying for the cronies' hotel rooms and fuel and things like that, that, you know, prior to that, they were kind of on their own finances. So let's talk a little bit about the vehicle mix on UA because you talked about, you know, part of it is you don't know where you're as a participant. You don't know where you're going when you apply. And so, you know, whether you're a short wheelbase, long wheelbase, you know, set up for different terrains is is part of the the gamble there. I ran an interesting side note. I got new tires this week and I was at the tire store and a gentleman walked in that worked there, manager at the tire store. And he said, hey, is this your truck out here? He said, I can tell you actually wheel it. And I said, yeah, what gave that away? He's like, well, your wheels are all ate up and you get dents in the panels. And So we start talking about wheeling and he said, yeah, I like to go out west a few times a year. And I said, well, what do you wheel? And he said, well, I've got a K-thirty. And he said, well, it's kind of still a K-thirty. It's cut down a few inches and I've got sixteen inch rad flows front and rear. And I said, wait a second. I said, have I seen your truck? Like, was it in UA last year? And so this was James Jenkins, who was one of your reader invitees last year. Great guy. James is awesome. And but it was a it was a small world walking in the tire shop. And and there's there's James. But I thought about him with that big, full size rig. And, you know, you don't know what you're getting into. So so is that part of the challenge of it? That's something that sometimes comes into consideration when we're making the selections for that year. Generally, we know where we're going when we sit down to do the, you know, go through the applications. But it's not something we totally, you know, I wouldn't, automatically omit a short wheelbase vehicle if we're going somewhere with a lot of ledge climbs and stuff. The first step is selecting cool vehicles, well-built vehicles, cool vehicles, unique vehicles, vehicles that kind of get someone's attention, like Mike Day's BMW from this year. Yeah, it's a BMW on, you know, forty inch tires, but it's also incredibly well built, well engineered. And then the final kind of, I don't wanna say nail in the coffin, but potential for exclusion is, then I call up and I do an interview over the phone. And then I'm not really that interested in the vehicle. I'm getting into the driver's head and seeing where they're at. So every year, it's kind of different. We always say we're just trying to make an interesting cake. And so you never know what ingredients you're going to want to put in there. But again, the nature of the vehicle, long wheelbase, short wheelbase, full size, Jeep, it will come into play to a degree. Like, so if we know our sponsors are going to be fielding, you know, seven Jeeps, you're less likely to make the cut with a Jeep that year, just because I want to keep things, you know, interesting. I don't, I just don't want, to me personally, it was never all that interesting to watch five or seven or twelve of the exact same vehicles go through like on a club run yeah um there there's a comfort in that and but but you know when I see a group of people coming through and they're all in you know the only thing that differentiates one rig from the next is the color uh once I've seen the first one come through the obstacle I I kind of know what's going to happen afterwards you know and so so we're trying to build build an interesting story here for people to watch and so You got, Oh, how's that BMW going to do? How's that full size Ford going to do? How's that, you know, flatty going to do? You want to see how that next vehicle is going to, going to do through the trail. So that's all we're doing really. I had a very similar conversation with Marvin from Flex Rocks and Rollovers. And he said the same thing. He's like, it's like, if you want to come on any of these events and you want to submit, stop building Jeeps. He's like, you know, he's like, I know I have one, but he's like, there's so many things, like you said, things start to look the same. And he said, you've even got to think about how is this going to look on camera or how's this going to look in print? And, you know, those kinds of decisions that people don't think about. Yeah, well, the camera thing, I don't have anything against Jeeps, even when I'm, you know, doing UA applications. So if you have a Jeep, please apply. You never know when you're going to make it. But to your point, yeah, on camera, sometimes like if we're going to like, say, West Virginia a couple of years ago, it would be hard for me to pick an olive drab vehicle. Cause I know it's just going to evaporate in the, in the photography that said, Johnny wood came with his, uh, olive drab, um, you know, Ram pickup and, and managed to make it pop in the photography and video somehow just by, by nature of his driving. But, um, you get what I'm saying? Like it's, you gotta, you gotta kind of make the cake. There you go. Well, uh, Maybe kind of the batter that holds that cake together has been this group affectionately referred to as the cronies. So give us the history for those that aren't familiar with kind of where that originated and how this group came to be. Yeah, well, that was a Rick Payway thing. Rick was the one that started bringing them in. Because when I was part of UA in the first three, excuse me, the support staff was the employees. So, you know, it was myself and Cole and Rick and I I think actually on that third one and john kappa came along and helped he was there for jp covering it for them but um rick was the one that kind of initiated that and most of those cronies to my understanding were participants at one point and then you know you kind of prove your metal and your worth and in your you know show that you have a good temperament and you're you're a good fit with the group And and then he kind of started piling them in. And then when I took over in twenty sixteen, there was a real fear that I was going to, you know, just kind of eliminate. Yeah. But quote unquote, my own people in. But, you know, I'm I'm savvy enough to look at something and realize that this is now a well-oiled machine that I was lucky enough to inherit. And, um, you know, I've made, I've added a couple cronies into the mix, uh, Kenny Smith and Fred Williams. I minted him as a crony in, uh, twenty, twenty-two, I think, or twenty-one or twenty-two. But, um, but yeah, uh, they're just, just the best of the best, you know. And what about the Crony Awards? So this was the first year with you guys having the Unreal coverage that we as an audience were able to see that. But that's something that's been going on for a while. Yeah. You would have to, you know, maybe you can interview Trent at some point in time. Because that, when I took over in twenty sixteen, that was already something. And I had not heard about it until that night at the banquet. I was worried about You know, are they going to have enough food for these guys? And, hey, you know, I'm grabbing this person and that person from the place we're at and the facility. And I'm worried about the nuts and bolts of dinner. And then the cronies are off on a table with a pad and pencil. What are you guys doing? Oh, we're writing down the awards. What? And so that was my initiation into, you know, that whole side of it. But it's one of my favorite parts of UA. And so when it came time to, you know, do the coverage this year, I was really happy that we had the ability to extend our coverage to show that. Yeah, I thought it was great. And let's talk about that. Let's talk about the difference in coverage. We don't have to go through the whole Motor Trend discussion. That's been talked about to death, I think. But under the Unreal umbrella and Adventure Media, which is you and Trent, I believe. Correct. What was your thought process on the liberty that you now had with this longer form content? Well, With, with motor trend, we were really limited because for they, they just didn't want to expand the coverage, uh, because, you know, editing time is editing money. Um, and so there's, there's, uh, I they're real good at just checking a box, right? Oh, um, we, we need, we need a video. Boom. Okay. doesn't matter. You know, twenty twenty one was a great example where they took over the I was not allowed to be part of the editing process. And those videos were like eight minutes long. And so that was but it checked the box. Hey, we have a video. That's that's what's in the contract is a video. It doesn't say. So it's your event that you're overseeing and you're not allowed to be in the editing bay? That was that particular year, yeah. I was able to go through them once and kind of point out any kind of major, major flaws, but they weren't going to go back and recut at my insistence or at my direction. So that was a bummer of a year. And so the audience kind of revolted and But at Unreal, we always knew that this was something that people would be interested in. It's like, why can't we do an hour per day? There's seven days on this event. Let's give the audience what they want. And so working with Ryan Foss, our production department, so to speak, um, you know, Ryan's on board, uh, Trent and I were, were, were super stoked and, and we, we really wanted to over deliver not only for, uh, our sponsors, but for the audience. And so, so yeah, we were able to do the, the kind of the prequel. videos uh leading up to the event we did uh seven long form videos on on each day and then we did the uh the ua uh crony awards and we've we've actually got some stuff that we're cutting now uh you know like breaks and things like that to kind of help us lead into ua twenty twenty five Oh, well, that's cool. So there'll be some filler before next year to kind of keep everybody's appetite. Yeah, Trent and I have been kind of interviewing. Yeah, we've been interviewing some of the sponsors, and we have plans to interview cronies and things like that on our Adventure Media podcast, which airs on the Unreal Adventure YouTube channel. And then, like I said, we're also getting Ryan working again to do some shorter form, kind of best of UA-XXIV videos that we'll start posting. Well, I think you guys have done great. I think this year was such a big win for the event and the content. And I hope that you saw the feedback on that from the community. Yeah, I was floored by the positive. You know, everyone loves to be a troll on the Internet. Yes, they do. And the response from the public was overwhelmingly positive. So it really was and is so greatly appreciated. We worked hard to pull it off and to, you know, make a good quality product. And it really meant a lot that people seem to appreciate that. Now, do you and Trent, are you guys talking about, how far out do you look at it from a business perspective? Do you have a five to ten year plan, or are you just trying to get through the next one? Five year plan, yeah. We really want to expand on this thing. Unreal Adventure will still be the Halo brand. We want to have some other offerings for sponsors and participants. And then some some unique stuff that, you know, we we have always talked around the campfire about doing. And now we kind of have the opportunity to do so. It's it's in. Give us a tease of what any of that might look like. uh some some you know like I said unreal adventure is going to be the halo it's going to be the the top of the heap the hardest stuff we want to do some kind of intermediate style wheeling some overland type of trips um there's there's some good stuff we have planned that that you know will be coming in the not too distant future awesome awesome All right. Well, uh, before I let you go, Christian, let's, uh, I've got five rapid fire, uh, questions. All right. Uh, number one, uh, favorite off-road trail snack. I am a minimalist, so it's whatever my hand pulls out of the MRE bag. I don't care. Wow. Okay. Interesting. Um, So when you put your hand in the bag, you're rummaging around, how about sweet or salty? What are you looking for? Oh, it depends. I really don't care. I like those MREs. I don't particularly love the food, but they're like enrichment for a zoo animal. Like, so I always joke that like, you never know what's going to be next. So I just stick my hand in and if it's the mixed nuts with no salt, I'm like, Oh, a little disappointed, but okay. You know, this is, this is what luck gave me right now to deal with. Or if it's the you know, if it's the, the, the, the, Toaster pastry. All right. There you go. So you just, you just treat it as part of the adventure. See what you're doing. Yeah. That's, that's animal enrichment. Just, just whatever, whatever I'm surprised by coming out of that, that bag. All right. You're going out on the trail for a day and you can only listen to one artist or one album for the day. I will preface this by saying I hate music on the trail. Not hate, but I generally don't listen to music ever on the trail. But if I had to, probably Bob Marley, Legend. Oh, interesting, interesting choice. I think that would put me in good headspace. That's a cool vibe for the trail, depending on the trail. Yeah, it might be a little too loose if it's a hardcore trail. Nope, nope. Nope, can't get too loose? Okay. All right. Very important question here that we ask everybody. DeWalt or Milwaukee? Cordless, DeWalt, corded, Milwaukee. Okay. I'm kind of in the same camp. I say saws, Milwaukee, and most of those are corded. Everything else, DeWalt. Magnum hole shooter, Milwaukee, too. You got to have one of those. Got you. Manual or automatic? Manual. Manual. Even with as good as the automatics are today. Not even close. Give me a manual any day of the week in any vehicle in any situation. All right. I think I might know the answer to this one, but I'm going to ask it. So you can get one rig back from your past builds. You can revive it. What are you choosing? I would say my .Cutlass. Oh, okay. But aside from that, and you might be surprised, Uh, not my Ram charger. Uh, although I really missed that truck, uh, probably take my seventy one CJ six project to Tari. Uh, I missed that. I missed that Jeep. That was my daily driver going from San Diego up to the office in Beverly Hills for quite a few years. That's that would be a heck of a commute in that it sucked, but, but I did, we bonded that vehicle. It was something about the suffering that brought you together on that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. All right, well, good deal. Well, again, thank you, Christian. I really enjoyed this. I think the listeners are going to enjoy kind of hearing some of these stories from the origination of UA and where we are today with Unreal Adventure. So thanks for coming on. Yeah, thanks for having me. Thank you to Harry, our friend Harry, for setting this up for us. Harry's one of the best. I love the guy, yeah. Absolutely. All right. Cool.