Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. This is Overland Weekly. This is episode number 19. I'm your host today. My name is Davey. I am joined by a very special guest. Mr. Harry Wagner is on the program today. Welcome, Harry. Thanks. Thanks for the intro. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. Yes, absolutely. Folks, before we dive into Harry's story, I need to back up and set the stage for this. So if you are around my age or even a little bit younger, you grew up with these things called magazines. They came, you either bought them off the rack at the supermarket or you had a subscription to it because it was much cheaper to get the subscription back then. And every month or maybe every two months, this magazine shows up in the mailbox. And man, it was always exciting as a teenager that day to get the magazine and see what the new articles were because there wasn't... Things weren't leaked ahead of time. There wasn't the Internet to get everything out there and spoil the excitement. So turning from page to page there was this excitement. And for me, Petersons and Four Wheeler, those were the big magazines in the '90s. And then on into the 2000s, and there were these names that you begin to see writing articles and taking photographs that you begin to recognize these names from publication to publication. A lot of those names are the same names that a lot of folks will recognize now from motor trend shows or from YouTube. But for me, David Freiburger was the editor of Petersons, not the Freiburger he is today. So, Harry, I think you're around the same age. Did you grow up as a child looking forward to the magazines, whether it be for off-road or other things? Yeah, absolutely. I'm in the same boat as you, and I think that's how I started was as an enthusiast. My dad had an off-road shop when I was a kid, and I would read these magazines and the same thing. I would read these crazy stories by David Freiburger or Rick Payway. One that sticks out of my memory early on in the late '90s, they drove an M715 Rick and David, to the first rock crawling competition that was ever held in Los Cruises. And it was a very road kill-esque. We know this formula now where the thing's a piece of junk, it breaks down along the way. But Yeah, it set the stage. And I was in the same boat where like, wow, I want to go on these trips. I want to do these adventures like these guys do. That sounds awesome. Yeah, and so you said your dad had a shop, and I know you really grew up in the off-road vibe community. It was a whole family event from what I've seen on some of your information. And so tell us about that. You As a kid, did family vacations revolve around going to the trails and getting the 40 out there? Yeah, they certainly revolved around the outdoors. So whether that was I grew up in Northern California. We would go to the Coast, we would go to the mountains. We did a lot of camping as a family. I was in Boy Scouts. And we also did a lot of off-roading, too. And I don't know about you or the people listening. For me as a child, I didn't have a lot of perspective, I guess. I just assumed everyone's life was like this. You load up in the back of this FJ40, and you go to the Rubicon, or you go to Sierra Trek, and you're out there doing it. And it wasn't until much later that I realized just how special that was, that those opportunities that I had at a young age. Yeah, absolutely. So as you were growing up, and then on into your your teen years, did you always want offroading and that career path to be your thing? Because I know you had another professional career in geo physics for a long time. Yeah. You know what? I'll be honest, offroading and rock crawling was always my dad's thing. I came along as a child, and I guess without getting too heavy. But I think a lot of what I've done in offroading is in an effort. My dad's a hard man to please. He's pretty stoic. And I think like, Hey, I went here, and, Hey, I did this, or, We built this. And he's like, Okay, that's cool. And so it was always his thing. I think it wasn't until later, when I feel like I was out of school, I had discretionary income. I started doing more off-roading on my own, out of his shadow, and not necessarily with my family. And then it definitely is something that I love. But as a child, it wasn't... I guess I didn't have a lot of say in the matter anyway. I just went, and I always saw it as my father's thing at a young age. Well, folks, if you don't recognize Harry's name, let me pull this up here and show you how he fits in to this whole story that we're telling. Harry, these are all of your many of your cover photos, which are featured on your website. That's harrysituations. Com, folks. And so, yeah, bring us... Bridge that gap from your childhood to how you end up being the guy that's out there with a camera taking all these killer cover shots. Yeah, I know you had sent a list of questions, and I really appreciate that, and a lot of them focused around storytelling. And so that was really the impetus for all of this. So I already had this background in off-roading that, like I mentioned, I had pretty much taken for granted. And out of school, with a degree in geophysics, my first job was in the oil industry, and I moved to Venezuela. And this was right around 2000. It's certainly before social media. There's email, but the Internet's just in its advent. And I started going on all these trips. I had never been out of the country, so I had a I had a wonderful childhood, but it was a bit sheltered. I mean, it was very California-centric. And going to another country, it just blew my mind, and I just couldn't get out enough and travel enough. And I would take pictures, and I'd write this stuff up. And at the time, I would send it to my mother, and she would send it to everyone she knew. And so I was like, oh, I better stuff up my game here. I need to do a better... People are looking at this. I need to do a better job. And so that was what honed those adventures adventure travel reports before blogs, before social media. And then when I returned home, it seemed natural to combine this interest in photography and writing with my old interests in off-roading. And so at that time, I reached out to a bunch of different editors at magazines, and I said, Yeah, I want to do this. I want to freelance for you. And I heard back from one guy. This was, I think, 2003, John Thompson was the editor of Fourwheeler at the time, and he replied and said, Yeah, send me something. And so I wrote a story on Sierra Trek, which is held on Fordyce Creek Trail. And that's an event I've been going to my whole life. And I was very fortunate in that regard, because sometimes you have to write something and it's like, I don't know a lot about this topic. I need to learn before I can share it with others. I don't want to sound ignorant or say the wrong things. And so fortunately, with Sierra Trek, I was very familiar with it. I wrote up a long version, a short version, a version from the perspective of a volunteer. And it got ran. It was two pages long. He paid me a check, showed up for $500, and I was like, Oh, I like this. I could get used to this. And so, like they say, the rest is history. Wow, that's cool. And you mentioned the storytelling part of it, because I think for you, I don't want to speak for you, but I think that's who you are at your core, whether it be photography or whether it be written word or now video is the storytelling part of it. How has that just shifted for you as these mediums have changed, as we've gone from a print medium now into this digital YouTube-driven age? Yeah, you're absolutely right. I do love storytelling. And you mentioned the cover shots. A lot of those are features on a particular a regular vehicle. And that was always my favorite thing to do, regardless of medium. And I think it's because everyone has, right? Whether it's... I used to drive past one of these when I was a kid in a field, and I always wanted to build one, or my grandpa had one of these, or whatever it happens to be. It's never rational, right? It's never like, this gets the best mileage, or Edmund said, this is the top pick for this market. No, it's emotional. And I really like telling those stories. I So one thing, the shift to social media, the shift to YouTube, you get feedback. So I used to write and an editor would accept a story or not, and then it'd run. And I would like some more than others, certainly. But now I really get to see what the public likes more than others. And that's really helped shape how long is this or what details do they want that maybe I hadn't included in the past. So it's really great to have that interaction and that feedback. And it's helped me home that craft. So where do you get most of that? Is that Instagram, where you're getting most feedback directly from the public, or what platforms? Right. So I would say Instagram is the big one for me. Between stories and posts, I get a lot of feedback and have a lot of interaction with people, and then also comments in YouTube videos, too. What do you think, Harry? Is there still... Because Instagram What fills this niche? But is there still a place for still photography in today's storytelling, in today's media? Yeah, I want to say yes. I don't take not really as many photos as I used to in the print day and age. But for me, I can still see a photo and find inspiration in it. I guess in my mind's eye, I see a cool vehicle, and it's in this beautiful setting. The lighting is great. And when I see that, it inspires me to get out there and to travel and to explore. And so I think photos leave more to the imagination that video does sometimes. So I think that there is still a place for it. And I think we see that in places like Overland Journal that's still doing really high-end great photography. It's on well-printed paper. It's quarterly. So I think that there is still a market, but it's certainly shifted. It's not what it used to be. Right. Yes, the Overland Journal is one of the few that remains that you can actually hold in your hand and enjoy. And like you said, I think that that imagination factor of the photograph is part of what makes it so special, because a photo tells a lot, but there's a lot it doesn't tell, and you can visualize and imagine what it was like or how that shot unfolded. You came into this career with the magazines in 2010,'11, '12, is that correct? That was certainly when I was getting... At that point, I still have my day job. I always have. That's the time when I had said... I would do a lot of contract-based work. And so we'll be busy in the summer, we're slow in the winter. And I said, Hey, I don't need hours. If we're not busy, don't feel like you need to find work for me. I'll go and do this other stuff. And that was right around then. I felt comfortable enough in my career that I could make that choice. And it really allowed me to pursue a lot more opportunities to write. And that became as much my day job as doing geo-physics at that time. I see. And the reason I asked that is that I believe that was really the time frame where you're starting to see streaming media and and YouTube, and Motor Trend Online, and these news shows, things like Dirt Every Day, Spooling Up, that before, again, going back here, being the old guy, when I think about video with Petersons, I'm thinking about VHS tapes, right? I'm thinking about when you'd order Top Truck Challenge, and I remember I used to split that with my buddy and go over to his house, and and put that tape in. And so you came into it, I believe, at an interesting transition. Maybe you didn't realize it was transitioning at the time. Maybe just video was becoming this new part of it because it was easier to get out to the public. Did you realize that there was this transition occurring, or did you think it was just to supplement the magazine? No, I saw the writing on the wall. There's There's been all these... I mean, even just now, right? They're saying that Motortrend is going to shut down the production studio. So there's been these different owners for these publishing groups. And we saw consolidation, where at one time, Fourwheelers was a different publisher than Peterson's. And there was Fourwheelers Sport Utility, there was JP, there was Off-Road. And then they all come under one house, and then slowly, they are getting killed off. And so the writing was on the wall for quite a while. And honestly, that was a big factor in me not going all in like, okay, I'm going to have one foot in, but I'm going to have this backup plan in this day job because it was clear it wouldn't last forever. And there have been people that have made, successfully made that transition. I mean, you mentioned dirt every day. I think Fred Williams is the best example of that. But there's a lot of other people that worked in the print industry that have had to go on and find other things to do now. Sure. Walk us through what one of these productions is like. I know you were involved in some of those early Dirt Every Days, right? Especially when a cheap truck challenge. Again, here's something that to me, came from a magazine, and now you're seeing it play out. I mean, watching it, it looks like those had to be a blast. But I know there's a lot of work. I know there's a lot of unseen behind all that. Tell us what that was like. Yeah, absolutely. And even the name Dirt Every Day comes from trips that Freiburger and Rick Payway used to take, and then Rick gave his blessing to Fred to take that name. And early on... So Fred actually was the one who pitched the idea, I don't want to turn this into a Fred Williams podcast, but- It's easy to do. Yeah, it's dead in everything. Exactly. Yeah. So he had worked for Rick for years, and their motor trend is starting to make all these hot rod shows. And he went to them and said, Why don't you guys get five hot rod shows? Where's the Off-Road Show? And so he pitched that to him, to management. It was his idea. And he was still working at Peterson's and then went on to be the editor of Peterson's while he's shooting Dirt Every Day. And those early shoots, it was an afterthought. He had one video guy that was with him, and that guy would just film whatever was happening. But it was really more... I'm thinking of 2013 Dirt Every Day when I got my Ford truck, and that became one of the early episodes of Dirt Every Day. But it was really... I mean, we were there for the magazine, and it was an afterthought. And then it seemed like incrementally over the years, the magazine becomes the afterthought, and the show becomes, and the video side becomes the priority. And by the end, he had a producer, a director, a production assistant, a drone operator, two camera operators. And they would hire me to shoot stills for Dirt Every Day. They had a budget, and they'd be like, oh, we're just going to use the stills for social media and promotion. But they had more budget than the magazines just for photos for that. So just tides had turned. Wow. Interesting. Yes, especially, like you said, with all the motor trend drama unfolding this week. So, yeah, speaking of that Ford, I think that truck, it's been in magazines, it's been in videos, it's been on ultimate adventures. Let me pull a picture up here because I I want to talk about this truck. Is this... And first off, just a technical question. I've seen it listed as a '77, I've seen it listed as a '78. It's got round headlights, which I thought was '77. What's the story on the debate on that? Well, and that goes back, I made a comment earlier where I write something up, and if I'm not an expert on the subject, then people let you know. And So when I bought this truck, I'm not an expert in dead sides. I got a title, and it said it was a '78. So in that 2013 episode of Dirt Every Day, and in that issue of the magazine associated with that, I said, Oh, yeah, this '78 truck. Oh, people let me know. This is not a '78. Actually, I even had issues. When I went to DMV, they said, This truck's a '77, not a '78. So I had to go get things notarized, and get the title changed, and all these things. But you are correct, it is a '77. And I I never... At that time, it was like, oh, I need something for dirt every day and for cheap truck challenge. And at the magazine, it's always like, what's your next project? What are you building? What are you working on? And I bought that truck. Most of the cheap trucks, people buy them, they modify and beat the crap out of them, flip them, sell them to fund whatever the next one is going to be. I've always struggled with that. I get attached to things, and I have a hard time getting rid of them. And so I didn't know that was going to be the case. It wasn't love at first sight. But yeah, now I've certainly become very fond of it. Yeah. It's evolved a few times over the years. Can you walk us through what that transformation over the last decade has looked like? Yeah, that's very astute, because on the face of things, it looks very similar. I mean, at cheap truck, it had giant tires and cut fenders just like it does now. And pretty much the entire drive train has changed. So it had a 351 and had a bent push rod. So we put a 460 in it, and it had an MP435, so a four-speed manual. And now it's got a ZF5, so a five-speed with overdrive. It's got an off-road design doubler. I think the 205 is actually the only original part of the drivetrain. It has Superduty axles now, and then more recently, the suspension. I added bypass shocks front and rear. It's a So much fun. This truck, I've driven it to Cabo San Lucas with Burns. I drove with my friend Brian Semner to Alaska the year I took it on Ultimate Adventure. So it's, yeah, something I know you're a Toyota guy. I consider myself a Toyota guy. I heard you talking to Michael Piper about that, too. And I own a lot of things that aren't Toyotas. I don't own that many Toyotas now, but I think that just goes back to my first mini truck. And I've always liked Toyotas. I never thought, Oh, yeah, I'm a Ford. Even my dad's a Chevy guy. So when I got this truck, he's like, Again, okay, that's cool. I guess it'd be cool if it was a Chevy. I don't know. It's hard to hate on that generation of Ford. I had a '78 F 250 for a short time. It wasn't in near as good a shape as yours. In fact, as a young teenager, I didn't really know exactly what I was buying, including the 4x4 wooden fence post body lift mounted that they had used on that truck. But anyway, a 464 speed, that's all I cared about at that time. You mentioned this thing's been from Mexico to Alaska and for ultimate adventure. So you've been involved in a few ultimate adventures, I believe, either participating or as part of the crew. Give us an insider's perspective on that. Do you remember what year your first one was you were involved with? I do. Yeah, it was 2013. So that was when Rick Payway was still running things. And we went to Georgia and Florida, and Alabama that year. It was in July. It was terribly hot. I got a heat rash. We're in the mud. And at the time, I was like... I shot all the photos and I had to write up a story, and I was like, I didn't have that great a time, to be honest. So it was a little hard to find an inspiration to write up that trip. And it's interesting to see how it's evolved, because I still think of ultimate adventure as Rick Payway's Baby. He didn't start it, but he ran it for 15 years. The event, as we know it today, Rick helped design that, whether it was no trailers or wheeling, and then going to another place. He really helped to hone all that. Going to a new location every year, he would always find these cool spots. And so that was the first year I went. I didn't go back until Christian Hazel took over in 2016. So I helped him that year, designed the route. We did a lot of trails. In my back, we did brand the Rubicon, we ran Fordice. And that was my favorite part about that was seeing folks. And if you follow ultimate adventure, names like Keith Bailey and Sam Gillis, Chris Durham will be familiar to you. These guys live on the East Coast. They're the nicest people I I look forward to seeing them every year. It's like a family reunion and having that opportunity to show them our trails. And their minds were just blown because we're camping out there, and it's super pretty, but it's also a challenge. And that's what I recall from growing up. That's what got me, made me fall in love with this, was not just the rock crawling, but the scenery, and the opportunity to camp, and the opportunity to fish, and those things that we have around here. Yeah, you were We're talking about, so 2013, you were in the Southeast for that one. That's my part of the country. So had you been involved in any East Coast wheeling prior to that? Because coming to Georgia in July is not a good introduction into the East Coast. Well, and the suffering was part of what Rick enjoyed. Oh, sure. He wants it to be no winding, right? And I'm like, I won't whine if you don't put me in this situation situation where it's 100 % humidity and 100 degrees out. I lived for a short period of time in New Jersey, so I had done some wheeling in the Northeast, and not a lot in the South. I'd come out to meet up with Keith Bailey and have been to Wind Rock once. I got out to Morris Mountain once when I was in that area for work, but very limited before that trip. And we went back. The last ultimate adventure I went on was, I want to say 2022, when we started in Alabama, and then we went to Georgia. We went to Wind Rock. We ended in Tennessee. And I think that's your neck of the woods, right? Yes. Wind Rock is right down the road. It was beautiful. So it was September. The weather was much nicer. So many trails, such a beautiful area. And, yeah, I fell in love with it. Every year, Trent and Christian put together these trips, and they're like, we're going to the or New England. And I'm like, Oh, there's bugs are going to be terrible. Or we're going to the South. And I'm like, I have to confess, I'm snobby about... I love where I live, and I love the opportunities. I've lived a lot of different places, but I like the opportunities we have around here. And then You would think I would know better, because every year we go, and I'm like, I really like it here. It's beautiful. Oh, the people are so nice. Oh, the wheeling is great. And so I still like where I am, but it's not the only place that has nice people and great wheeling, and beautiful scenery. Sure. Harry, what does a UA crew look like from a production standpoint? Because we always see the van, or normally two vans. You got Tiger's van, which is the... That's my favorite. He's my favorite of the whole UA thing is watching him send that thing. And then the production van, which I'm sure there's always... You've got to get that thing in up these trails as well. And we don't always see all the winching and all the work that goes with that. So tell us, is it two or three people? Is it 20 people? How many people are involved in what we see? Yeah, it's a pretty bare bones crew. So quickly started supporting the event in 2017. My friend Ken Smith, who lives in South Carolina, he drove the van that year. Since then, he typically brings his own rig, and I ride with him But the van typically has charging in it, and the video carries the video crew. And then, yeah, Tiger was like, we're saying, well, this is a better show than what we're putting on from this van. And then quickly came on as the driveline sponsor. I want to say I think that was in 2020. And from what I've heard, this is just a rumor, unsubstantiated. But I heard Tiger's boss told him that there will be no video of that van winching on any of these obstacles. So he said, okay, we're not going to have people think, oh, it's a van. It can't go everywhere these guys go. And so Tiger has taken that to heart. And like you said, he has quickly become a fan favorite for sure. But the So on the production side, I mean, a lot of times on the still side, it was me, maybe Josh Walker, one other shooter. And then on the video side, there'd usually be two or three people, but a pretty small crew. And that's actually my preference. I find when you get too many people, now you're in each other's way, or it just gets more complicated. So this way, it's already hard enough with the participants, getting them to stand behind me and not in front of me for images. But adding more crew, just at some point, there's diminishing returns, I feel like. Yeah, and because anyone who has ever tried, you go out with your your buddies, and I've tried this multiple times, and you charge up your GoPros and everything the night before, and you're like, We're going to get out here, and we're going to shoot all this sick footage. And you get out there, and when you're trying to wheel and drive and film and spot and pull cable and all these things, and then you get back and you're like, We got a minute and a half of my shoes in the dirt. To shoot this adventure and to capture it is really an art. Is there Are these shots, like with UA, I don't believe it's like Hollywood, right? I don't believe it's lights, camera, action, like we're setting up the shot and then go. Or maybe is there some of that before somebody attempts an obstacle? Typically not. So there was a year, I think it was when Dave built Mom's Spaghetti. I want to say that was maybe 2021, the Dirt Every Day crew went, these guys that are used to filming with Fred and Dave, and they went to ultimate adventure to capture that. And like you're saying, they're like, hey, tell everyone they need to stop and back up and we need to shoot that again. And Fred's like, these guys don't work for you. That's not how we do that. Yeah. So it's very much it's very organic. And that's what I like to document. It's like, I'm there. I'm just a fly on the wall. I'm not saying, back up, oh, turn your tire this way. I'm just capturing it. And And you mentioned you go out with your buddies. And when I go out with my buddies, I don't even bring my camera. This is a job. And so there was one year I took my Ford on UA, and Ken Smith drove it. But otherwise, when I'm working, because you just get spread too thin, right? You can't do a great job of driving. You can't do a great job of filming. And so if I'm shooting, that's my priority, and I just want to focus on that. And at the end of the day, I'm cleaning gear, and charging batteries, and downloading images, and trying to stay on top of them and sort through them. So that really becomes my priority on these trips. And when I go wheeling with my friends, I just don't bring the camera, and that's something I definitely still enjoy. And we go out and have a good time, and it's not work. Right. Yeah. I was going to ask again on the UA thing is if it felt... If it's enjoyable to be out there when you're on the clock, if you can enjoy the moment or if it feels like you've got the pressure to make sure you don't miss the shot because that axel is only going to snap once. Either you captured it or you didn't, right? Right. And that is something I think that goes back to print media, too, where even if we cover UA in two issues, you're talking a total of 60 images. So I don't feel like the pressure was as high in the print time to capture every single moment. That as it is with video. But all of these trips, whether it's ultimate adventure, Dakar, racing in Baháʼí, we describe them as type 2 fun. I don't exactly remember the first time I heard that term, but I think it really is applicable where at the time, it can be a slog. It's when you get home and you're cleaned up and you've had a shower and you've put your things away and you're like, Oh, yeah, that was a lot of fun. I had a lot of fun this year. But sometimes it takes a little... In the moment, if someone asked, you'd be like, I don't know. I got you. Well, so when you do get home, are you involved in any of the postproduction editing of it, or is that another crew that does all the editing and puts the films together? Yeah, Ryan Fauss has been doing that for the last several years. If you've noticed, so this year, it's the Unreal Adventure. The videos have come out now, right? We've seen that. They're long form, so a big difference. Same crew for the most part, but just now Christian, Hazel and Trent McGee have the creative control, so that they've been in charge of that. On the video side, I haven't been very involved. I was So I used to shoot it and I would provide Christian a list of shots, and I would break them down by vehicle, and I would write the daily updates, and I would write the story that went in print, but not anything on the video side. I see. Talking about your gear a little bit, that has to be difficult or hard on gear going into these trails, and whether it's a mud hole or the side of a mountain where you're going to drop this $5,000 camera. Is that difficult to take care of gear when you're out there hustling up the trail like that? Yeah, absolutely. I think when it's wet is probably the biggest challenge, but it's definitely hard on gear. A lot of times I would buy used equipment. There's a forum, Fred Miranda's website, and I would buy stuff from a studio photographer or a portrait photographer, and they'd say, Oh, I still have the original box. Condition's nine out of 10. I would get this thing, and it would look brand new, and one trip, and then it's a one out of 10. So it's a lot like buying a truck, right? You want to find the cream puff so you can go out and beat on it. Yeah. Exactly. You mentioned Toyota earlier, and I don't have a photo of it, but I'll get one and put it up here before we put this out. Tell us about your junior mint build. Can you give us a walkthrough on that one? Yeah. So the background there is my first vehicle. I mentioned I was in Boy Scouts, and I was an Eagle Scout. My parents, when I reached that rank, got me a 86 CJ7, and it was pretty mild, certainly by today's standards. I mean, in high school, I thought it was cool. It was on 33s and had limited slips. But I drove all that all through high school and college. And then it wasn't until later that I got my Toyota pickup, and I bought this turbo truck. They had a stronger transmission. They had a stronger rear-end. They made more horsepower. And at the time, I didn't have a trailer. I didn't have a tow rig. I was going to build this thing to run the Rubicon, drive it to the trail, camp out of it, and everything else. And so that was the case over. It had a lot of the standard Toyota stuff, Marlin Crawler, dual cases, solid actual swap, lockers, 37s, and that's a combo that works on a toy to pick up and is very capable. Yeah, absolutely. It's funny you were talking about you didn't have a trailer or this and that. And I grew up, I had a couple of CJ5s from that same era. And like you said, 32s, 33s and just go. But it was always an adventure. At that age, none of us had had trailers or much less a truck to pull the trailer with. So part of the adventure was getting to the trail and wheeling that and then getting back home. Absolutely. We talked a little bit about Dirt Every Day and cheap truck challenge earlier. I know it's a fan favorite for all things motor trend. And that was, I believe, the first time we saw Raymond, your '77 F-150. Tell us about the cheap truck challenge and being involved in it and some of the other vehicles and participants. Was it all what we saw all, or was there a challenge to keep these things running long enough to get the footage shot? Right. Yeah. So to mention Fred Williams, again, that was his brainchild. And it's a book in to ultimate adventure. So we mentioned feedback. Back then, you had to write a letter to the magazine, and people would write in and be angry and say, you build these high dollar brand new rigs, and you put all this money into them, and that's unrealistic. And so Fred had this idea, well, let's go out and buy rigs that are realistic. And your budget is whatever year it is. If it's 2024, your budget's $2,024 to buy a vehicle and $2,024 to modify that vehicle. And he always wanted this mindset of like, what would a high school kid do? So he would say, I'm going to spend my whole budget on a stereo because that's what a high school kid would do, right? Or I'm going to like... So we would do things that were ridiculous, but that was the goal. And yeah, it was definitely a challenge to keep them running on a regular basis. I think that's always a bit tricky, where if you baby the thing, it's not great content, right? It's boring. If you go and send it on the first obstacle and break it in half, then you don't really have an episode to film. So trying to find that balance between the two, where you're using it, but you're not maybe using it up. Yeah. And I know it was always, like you said, the year was the budget. And you can go back And a lot of these are on YouTube or Motor Trend now, I believe. And what you could buy for $2,000 10 years ago, because if somebody just watched the 2013 challenge today, they'd be like, This is not budget trucks. This is $10,000 trucks. Because you had- Right. Yeah. Fred had an FJ80, right? I mean, trying to find an FJ80. And I think it was... It might have It hasn't been a full-float rear disk, like a '93 to '96. I don't recall now or if it was an earlier one, but I mean, any FJ80, right? I remember it had a little bitty tires or tires small for an '80 on it, but you'd spent your budget on the '80. You didn't need tires. Right. Yeah. His modification budget, he bought a winch. I think that was pretty much what his budget was. But yeah, he had an FJ80. Rick had a Cherokee, which those, I feel like after Cash for Clunkers, really got expensive. I mean, that was always the vehicle when people ask, Oh, my kids reaching driving age, where do I get them for their first vehicle? It's a Jeep Cherokee. But now, yeah, I mean, They haven't made them for a long time. There's not a lot of clean examples left. And the same with the Ford. I paid $1,200, and it came with another high pinion, 44 and nine-inch in the rear. At the time, I was like, Oh, this is great. You couldn't touch an early Bronco for this price. And this is basically the same drive train in a truck, and now they've gotten expensive, too. So like everything else, I suppose. Yeah, you couldn't buy the drive train for $1,200 right now. It's funny you were talking about the Cherokees, because I was thinking about that as I was preparing for this show and going back to the '90s, again, back to those old Petersons, where they'd have the Truck of the Year. And for four or five years there in a row, it was the Cherokee and then the Grand Cherokee that was always the Truck of the Year. That was the new truck. And then fast forward 20 years after that, those are the beaters out there in the the cheap truck challenge. So it's funny how the cycle works like that. I mean, we see that in a Land Cruiser community, too, right? I think you're an early adopter for a 200 series and pushing what they can do. But whenever a new one comes out, it's a rite of passage that if you have an FJ40, then an FJ60 is way too big. If you have a 60, an 80 is way too cushy. If you have an 80, then 100. You could never have IFS. And it just seems like it's the second or third owner is the one, right, that's actually going out and wheeling these things hard. That is absolutely the truth. And I think we can't escape it. Part of it's just the camaraderie of going to these events and poking at the guy with the one that's newer than you to make fun of them. But yeah, you're absolutely right. Harry, on a different It's a different topic. Let's talk a little bit about land use and public land use, because I know that you're very passionate about that. You're involved with several different organizations. Tell us about a Why that is important to you personally? It goes back to my childhood and growing up doing this, being part of Boy Scouts, and the wheeling was always just part of a larger picture of being in the outdoors. And so I want other people to have the same opportunities that I've had. I want when I go back to a place to have it be just as beautiful and pristine as I remember. And I have a little boy now, and I want him to have those opportunities, too, to go to the places I've been and see them and not have them be burned down or covered in trash or destroyed. So it's really, yeah, just about leaving places the way you found them. Tell us about I believe it's called Friends of Moon Rock, or Friends of the Moon Rock? Yeah. Yeah. Friends of Moon Rocks. So Moon Rocks is an OHV area operated by the BLM near Reno. And I was first introduced to Moon Rocks back that time we were talking about. 2003 was when rock crawling competition, to me, that was the peak. There's all these new vehicles coming out. That's the year that Tiny début, that was the first Moon Buggy. And there was an event out at Moon Rocks, and they had all these crazy courses. We still talk about like, Oh, there's B7. If you can do B7, then that's a big deal. And we're actually getting to the point now where we've been able to coordinate with BLM land managers, and We Rock is coming back for 2025 to Moon Rocks. For the first time in 22 years, there'll be a rock crawling competition out there. And that's a function of just keeping the area clean, educating people. Education is so important. And I film a lot. I mean, it's really for selfish reasons, because I film a lot out there, and I don't want to see it shut down. I don't want to see someone else, whether it's pallet fires or graffiti. I don't want these things to get it closed down. So I'm willing to put in the work to keep it clean in order to keep it open. And lots of other people are, too. I've really had a ton of help coordinating and organizing. And then also I'm always humbled when people I put the word out, hey, we're doing a cleanup and 50 people show up. It's humbling to have that happen. Absolutely. We've experienced similar things in this part of the country, where being proactive is not that difficult. And just if somebody raises their hand and says, we're going to do this on this Saturday, most of the time people will show up. People want to help. You just got to point on where to go and get involved, because as you know, unfortunately, The time to fix it is before it happens, before the trails get shut down, because once they pull that gate, it is really, really difficult to see it open again. And we've seen a few instances where we've been proven wrong on that. But we always encourage everyone, even if you're in a smaller town or an area that you say, well, there's no clubs or no events or here, it doesn't take... You don't have to have 50 people. Get three of you and get out there and pick up a couple of bags of trash. And that may very well keep your city or county from rolling through there and getting complaints about all the beer cans on the ground. Absolutely. Yeah, and I think if people come and they see an area that's dirty, they think, What's it matter if I drop my trash here or if I wreck this place? But if it's clean, I think it's human nature to to leave it that way. And I never got to go to Teleco. I never got to go to Panaman Valley and run that. And those were closed, and they'll It'll never be open again. Never again. And that's regretful. And I certainly don't want that to happen in any other places. Yes. So what's next for Harry's situation? For your whole storytelling journey? Do you have any projects on the horizon for 2025 that you can tell us about? Yeah. As far as vehicle projects go, not a whole a lot these days. I mean, that has changed. I think in the magazine days where you have to have tech stories every month, I definitely... You get into it, it doesn't even seem realistic, but you're always buying vehicles, you're always modifying vehicles. That has slowed down. I mentioned I have a one year old son. I mean, that's my biggest project right now. I've actually cut way back on hours for everything so that I can stay home with him, which is partially a function of the price of daycare. But also, when he rolled over for the for his time or he took his first steps, I was there for that. And so that's been a lot of fun. He loves to be outside. I mean, it's fall, so he's been playing in the leaves. He loves that. We're going to have some challenges with winter coming up, making sure he's bundled up. But he loves to be outside. And so we're going to spend a lot of time outside and do a lot of camping. And it's changing. It's probably not going to be ultimate adventure style, super hard core, but just getting him acclimated to it. And he's already really taken to it. My wife, she's more interested in being on a horse than in a Jeep. But she loves to be outdoors, too, and is really accomplished in the outdoors. And so, yeah, we're going to do a lot of camping. And as far as projects for 2025, I've been doing a video a month for Nitto on the driving Line channel for a number of years now with my friend Mike Henderson. We're going to continue doing that. You mentioned land use. The last video we actually put out was a funny take on that. I was really pleased with how that turned out. So check that out if you're interested in land use. And then coming forward, we'll have more of my flat vendor. I've got a Toyota Tundra first-gen double cab that we'll be making some videos with. I'm sure the Ford will be in there. More snow wheeling, winter's coming. So I'm excited for snow wheeling. It's always a good time. Yeah, so I guess a lot of the But I guess when you know what you like, then. Exactly. Yeah. Harry's got... He's involved in a number of YouTube channels you can find him on. But you do have your own channel, your Harry's Situations channel, and you've got some neat rig walkarounds, we'll call it, of your different vehicles on there. I really like the FJ40 that was your father's, that's now yours. So I'm not going to spoil it, but if you want to see a very unique one family-owned 40, you need to go to YouTube and look up that video. All right, before we let you go, we always run through these rapid fire questions here. So I'm just going to go down the list and you tell me what comes to mind. Favorite off-road trail snack? I wish I could say that it's baby carrots. I have a reputation for buying a bag of baby carrots on ultimate adventure and then eating all of someone's cookies or potato chips. Okay, you're that guy. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So let's say you're not working You're going out with your friends or solo, probably not solo because that wouldn't be safe. He's going out with a friend wheeling for the day. And you can only listen to one artist or one album while you're out for the day. What's going to be on deck? Oh, yeah. I think it's going to have to be something mellow. I really like Rage Against the Machine when I'm in the shop. But I feel like if I'm wheeling and I'm listening to that, then there's a high chance of breakage. So I was going to say, yeah. So probably something more We'll say, yeah, probably ClassicRock, Jimi Hendrix. Okay. All right. Are you a DeWalt or Milwaukee guy? I love the Milwaukee stuff. Okay. I was going to say, are you a door number three? But you're a Milwaukee. Okay. Yeah. They just haven't given me a reason to want to try anything else. They've been good to me. Here's a good question, because I know you've had both. A manual or automatic for wheeling? I'll take a manual for everything. I wish they kept making them. Yeah, I love... And I think that goes back to Toyota pickups on the trail, because if People are like, Oh, you can't wheel with a Toyota, or you can't wheel with a manual transmission, rather. And it's like, well, every 4-runner and pickup out there has dual cases in a manual transmission. Yeah, I just like the control. I like my Ford as a manual. I wish my Jeep had a manual. Yeah, that's my choice. What is the most challenging trail you've driven to date? And maybe that doesn't mean that it was the the most hardest rated trail, but because of the situation or what have you, it was the most challenging trip that you were a part of. What comes to mind is I've wheeled with these guys out of Oregon, the sketchy Oregon boys, Graham Tideman and his group, and they would always... I have my tracker that Jesse Haynes built, the most capable vehicle I've ever had. I pre-ran King of the Hammers in it several years, never had a problem. And I would go up with these guys, and they'd be like, Oh, this isn't that bad. And they all have single-seat They're putting their helmet on when they're going wheeling, which should have been a clue that I'm going to have trouble following them. Every time I went wheeling with those guys, I broke something up in Oregon. So don't sleep on Oregon. Around Ben, they've got some really hard trails. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, again, Harry, I appreciate you taking the time to come on and talk with us. I love to find out these stories behind the person and the events and everything that makes this community special. And I know it's bright and early. We may not have mentioned that, but when I reached out to Harry to come on, he said, I'd love to do it. He said, Can we do it early? And I thought, Well, that's okay, sure.

00 AM? And I was like, Oh, this guy is serious early. So thank you for getting up before the family and joining me today. Absolutely. No, it's been my pleasure. I'm really flattered that you asked. So thank you so much. All right. Later. Sounds good. Take care.